Curse

Zahr Dalsk · Oct 10, 2009, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Given the updates to SoS and the sudden acceptance of Ritualists into (some) groups, I've begun to play with human players, in Zaishen Quests, and this has caused me to notice a few things that I did not notice when I was only playing H/H. I'd like to share these observations with you.

First, let me point out the situation. All of you know this already, but I bring it up because it's significant.

Much of Guild Wars' campaign areas; that is to say, Prophecies, Factions, and Nightfall, have a very scarce number of people. True, it's possible to scrounger up a human group, but since they're PUGs and thus shit players, you can't get a good HM mission going. Why is this significant? Most of the player base are existing fans and most of us don't play NM.

Anyways, point being, the game's pretty much empty. Most of us play with H/H, for good reason, and it's extremely hard to find a group. Impossible, even, in HM.

Here's where Zaishen Quests come in.

When a Zaishen Quest hits a certain mission, that mission's outpost is going to suddenly get an increase in population. Usually 2-5 districts. Many groups will form (mostly HM) and playing with other people becomes easy (unless you're a Mesmer or a Ritualist who wants to play something fun, in which case see some of my comments in other threads about class discrimination).

Why is this significant? Well, basically, people come to the Zaishen Quests for a couple reasons. The first, obviously, is that it makes it easy to coordinate with other players and you know, going to a Zaishen Quest location, that you can probably find other people to group with. The other reason is that doing a mission you've already done gives no reward for completion. Zaishen Quests change that by rewarding the player for completing the mission.

And this second part brings me to what I've observed, but first, let me address the first part.

Going to any one outpost will often not find you another group. You'd need a guild, or an active contact list, and many of us do not have such things. When we choose to play with other players, we do it on the spur of the moment; we do not maintain a guild or a list of players for that purpose. Since the Zaishen Quest guarantees that particular location will give you a group, people are more inclined to go there.

Observation: GW2 should have a global party search function. I'm hoping they've already planned this (along with, you know, a proper auction house) but I thought I'd mention it here because ArenaNet is stupid and this is the sort of gameplay feature they'd overlook. And before you think "Hey, ArenaNet isn't stupid!" see below:

Anyways, I thought I'd mention that element for GW2. Global party search function, preferably with the ability to put yourself into a specific category, ordered by mission/dungeon/vanquish/whatever.

Onwards to the second issue. The other incentive to complete a Zaishen Quest is, as I mentioned earlier, that you now get an actual completion reward. It's true that you get item drops either way and thus some form of reward, but you could easily do that just going out and killing enemies in any explorable. Having a reward at the end of the mission actually provides incentive to do that mission and get the reward.

The problem is that in Guild Wars, you only get this reward once. Thus, most people who're looking to make a bit of cash usually won't want to repeat an old mission for that purpose.

I believe it'd be better if that one-time-only feature was not in place. If players actually got the few platinum they get on the first time, for subsequent times, there'd be more incentive to go back and repeat missions in general. I don't believe it'd have a large effect, but I do think it'd help. On that note, adding new weapons as random drops rather than chest loot would be a wise decision, as it'd encourage more actual gameplay instead of speed clears.

I realize this post gives the impression of being a Sardelac-style whiny request for stuff (as I've done a fair few of those myself in the past and will probably continue to do so eventually), but bear in mind that while I did include suggestions, it's not so much a request as it is an observation about how Zaishen Quests have affected player behavior and how more widespread use of these rewards could potentially revitalize the game a bit. As could altering drops and such for general enemies, adding new elements to the game and a better reason to play.

Thank you for putting up with this long and rambling post.

Cracko · Oct 10, 2009, 12:57 AM // 00:57

soo... now what?

seriously, i think we already knew this.

Zahr Dalsk · Oct 10, 2009, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cracko

So... now what?

Seriously, I think we already knew this.

I felt an overwhelming need to say it anyways.

**Marty Silverblade** · Oct 10, 2009, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Missions having low replayability factor seems to be the problem you're describing here. I don't think making the rewards attainable everytime you finish the mission would work since if it's anything significant people will just SC missions, and if it isn't there still isn't much point in it. Also, as you said, most people play HM, it's going to flood the economy with a ton of extra cash, unless of course, the reward is complete crap, in which case it may as well not exist.

Cuilan · Oct 10, 2009, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Many groups will form (mostly HM) and playing with other people becomes easy (unless you're a Mesmer or a Ritualist who wants to play something fun, in which case see some of my comments in other threads about class discrimination).

I've been doing zaishen bounties and mission since it started with my main mesmer character. Have yet to see or hear any class discrimination at all. Party search generally gets me into group with in seconds and same with "LFG ZB HM."

Shayne Hawke · Oct 10, 2009, 03:48 AM // 03:48

I wouldn't feel so bad about having there be a significantly lesser reward, such as how the dungeons have a one-time strong reward and then repeat-time weak rewards. Keeping the reward the same no matter how many times you've done it will create one of two problems: a constant, high reward that players find out how to exploit easily and quickly, or a constant, low reward that nobody cares about in the first place.

upier · Oct 10, 2009, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Onwards to the second issue. The other incentive to complete a Zaishen Quest is, as I mentioned earlier, that you now get an actual completion reward. It's true that you get item drops either way and thus some form of reward, but you could easily do that just going out and killing enemies in any explorable. Having a reward at the end of the mission actually provides incentive to do that mission and get the reward.

The problem is that in Guild Wars, you only get this reward once. Thus, most people who're looking to make a bit of cash usually won't want to repeat an old mission for that purpose.

I believe it'd be better if that one-time-only feature was not in place. If players actually got the few platinum they get on the first time, for subsequent times, there'd be more incentive to go back and repeat missions in general. I don't believe it'd have a large effect, but I do think it'd help. On that note, adding new weapons as random drops rather than chest loot would be a wise decision, as it'd encourage more actual gameplay instead of speed clears.

It's not "reward".
It's "ZCoins".

That's the ONLY reason why I do ZQuests.

mage767 · Oct 10, 2009, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Got plenty of gold zcoins, but it is not what I want.

I want to be able to spend the gold coins on some new skinned weapons (don't care if it is customized accountwide), and not on some lousy elite tomes (all elites already capped) or everlasting fireworks (which can be obtained from Nick anyway).

After some time, even Z-stuff will lose its appeal since most people will have coins with nothing 'interesting' to spend on.

Shuuda · Oct 10, 2009, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

And before you think "Hey, ArenaNet isn't stupid!" see below:

ArenaNet isn't stupid.

David_Belgae · Oct 10, 2009, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

After some time, even Z-stuff will lose its appeal since most people will have coins with nothing 'interesting' to spend on.

Since I got my large equipment pack, I am no longer interested in the Z-stuff.
No keys for chests, no candy or tomes, no passage scrolls, no tonics.

What I do tended to do is the following: look for a ZBounty in an area that I needed vanquished. Or do a mission that got me some faction.

When I am bored of missions (and now that I know how they all work again, so nothing new anymore), nothing of the items attainable is going to change my attitude towards them.

And where were ZBounty's when I needed to vanquish Majesty's Rest and Rottie? I'm NOT going to wait a full cycle to get a chance again. (hooray for H/h)

Kenzo Skunk · Oct 10, 2009, 08:29 AM // 08:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Anyways, point being, the game's pretty much empty.

You should see Lord of the rings online.. I don`t find GW empty.

Mikkelet · Oct 10, 2009, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenzo Skunk

You should see Lord of the rings online.. I don`t find GW empty.

lol. -

EPO Bot · Oct 10, 2009, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Two things i have to say about zquests:

I do zquests every day and i can't remember ever pugging with the same people. There is still a pretty large player base.

Also, whenever i see some assassin running Kanthandrax for 12 K and actually gathering a party in no time, my usually indifferent stance on SF turns to pure hatred and a strong desire to simply remove it from the game altogether.

kazjun · Oct 12, 2009, 03:23 AM // 03:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by EPO Bot

Also, whenever i see some assassin running Kanthandrax for 12 K and actually gathering a party in no time, my usually indifferent stance on SF turns to pure hatred and a strong desire to simply remove it from the game altogether.

I think you're mistaken. People who'd want to actually fight through Kathandrax (or any dungeon really) will have already done so. With their guild or with H/H. And if they wanted to do it again (which doesn't really happen much considering the crap you get from most dungeons even in HM, 2 diamonds, really?) they'd do it with guildies or H/H. Most aren't going to waste their time doing some dungeon with pugs (which have a bad rep as far as getting things done). So no, more people aren't going to party with you.

As for those that go with runners, well. Either they can't do it themselves, which is why they are getting it run. They might party with you, but probably have crap builds, hence the not being able to do it themselves. Then there's also the ones that can do it, and have done it but can't be bothered doing it again. They're paying money for speed and convenience cause they can't be bothered doing it again. So no, even if you kill SF, it's not going to change the fact they can't be bothered doing the dungeon in the first place, so they're not going to party with you. Whether SF is around or not won't change much where dungeons are concerned.

Perfected Shadow · Oct 12, 2009, 08:30 AM // 08:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

As for those that go with runners, well. Either they can't do it themselves, which is why they are getting it run. They might party with you, but probably have crap builds, hence the not being able to do it themselves. Then there's also the ones that can do it, and have done it but can't be bothered doing it again. They're paying money for speed and convenience cause they can't be bothered doing it again. So no, even if you kill SF, it's not going to change the fact they can't be bothered doing the dungeon in the first place, so they're not going to party with you. Whether SF is around or not won't change much where dungeons are concerned.

Ever thought that SF dying might actually make people learn more on how to beat dungeons instead of getting run through it? The way I see it is very few bother to learn/get better because they just get run through the whole RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing game.

~ Dan ~ · Oct 12, 2009, 10:38 AM // 10:38

I don't actually see the point of this post. And just because the Z-quest fills hubs with players, it doesn't make those PuGs any less bad.

Dzjudz · Oct 12, 2009, 11:51 AM // 11:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

it's possible to scrounger up a human group, but since they're PUGs and thus shit players, you can't get a good HM mission going. Why is this significant? Most of the player base are existing fans and most of us don't play NM.

Wut? First of all, you equation 'pug = noob' is outright ignorant. Most pugs do just fine. I did the Deep HM yesterday with 6 people who had done it before and 6 first timers, a complete pug. We didn't beat any 12 minute record but we did just fine. Also, you just stated that most players are experienced HM players, that makes no sense if you just said that HM pugs consist of shit players. If anything, the zaishen coin reward is only an incentive for shit players to try HM in missions they otherwise would never have tried, making zaishen pugs worse rather than better. Pugs usually stand or fall with leadership. No leadership = no coordination and mostly a recipe for disaster. If nobody acts as a leader maybe you should start drawing on the map and typing tips in team chat. Works great!

lilDeath · Oct 12, 2009, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Nothing new to see here, Please move along.

/closethread

Zahr Dalsk · Oct 12, 2009, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

you equation 'pug = noob' is outright ignorant

Sure looks like someone around here has never seen the wonderful success that is H/H party.

refer · Oct 12, 2009, 09:02 PM // 21:02

They revitalize missions because people like getting free stuff. Getting multiple time rewards though is a bad thing. I mean they'd just get sick of the game faster and it doesn't seem right anyways.

Oh and I already suggested the party wide search thing, but maybe not on here. As soon as I started playing GW, realized that the lack of it would cause PUGs to drop.

Anet is just notoriously incompetent. I heard a saying that people who are the worst get put into places where they can do this least damage: management. Does this sound like Guild Wars?